Speaker | Timecode | Transcript |
- | 00:00:01:83 | Welcome to the SUSS series of podcasts that shares, questions, and dives into all things personal development. Because learning never stops, especially after graduation. This series will share insights, ideas, and advice, on shaping ourselves to prepare for a future of uncertainties. |
Cynthia | 00:00:28:33 | Hi, I'm Cynthia and welcome to the podcast. Since the COVID-19 pandemic, I've taken to eavesdropping on the videos that my father watches. He receives dozens and hundreds of videos forwarded by well-meaning friends and family members. Many of them provide alternative news and opinions that I'll never see make the homepage of official news channels - you know what I mean. |
Cynthia | 00:00:50:26 | The thing is when I take the time to watch these videos, I find myself questioning the credibility of them only because some of the opinions and advice seem rather legitimate. And that's why I'm delighted to speak with Dr Omer, Senior Lecturer at SUSS School of Humanities and Behavioural Sciences today. |
Cynthia | 00:01:09:33 | I'm curious to discover the impact fake news has in society and in our future. Thanks for joining us Omer, I've been looking forward to our chat today. |
Cynthia | 00:01:17:73 | So tell me, how common are alternative news and opinions in the world we live in today? |
Omer | 00:01:22:83 | Thanks for having me, Cynthia. And that's a very, very interesting question. |
Omer | 00:01:26:85 | I'll put it another way. Let's not even think about terms like fake news and disinformation. Let's take a step back. I remember there was a time when I was actually reading up about the paranormal. I loved watching X-Files. I kid you not, I mean, it's like, “Wow”. You know, ghosts and UFOs and that kind of stuff. |
Omer | 00:01:46:25 | And I actually did my little research into what is it out there? “The truth is out there,” you know, that tagline, by Fox Mulder and [Dana] Scully. Scully was a sceptic, you know, she'll come in, and she'll debunk, “Oh come on Mulder, you know, you're believing in all these conspiracy theories and all these fake news.” They didn’t call it fake news then. |
Omer | 00:02:04:67 | But one of the things that got me really excited, or rather interested, was how this character Fox Mulder did so much research. |
Omer | 00:02:14:87 | If someone spent so much time researching something with such conviction, surely, they say that without smoke, there’s got to be fire somewhere. So there must be some truth to this. What we are seeing today is a continuation of a lot of these things. The thing is, back in those days, you had to watch an episode of X-Files to sort of figure out all these things. |
Omer | 00:02:38:23 | These days we have WhatsApp, Telegram, Signal, and Google. Yes, we have everything, it just keeps coming to us. And, it's so ubiquitous now. It's not just that, it's easy to get hold of disinformation, and it's in your face. It's flooding you. I'll give you an example. Like I mentioned, back in the day, if you were interested in something as unusual as something like that, you would have to do a little bit of research. |
Omer | 00:03:06:56 | And in that process, you will have to go through a lot of sources. Some of them could be quite legitimate. But these days, for example, in TikTok or any platform, once you show interest in a particular imagery or a topic, you'll just get a flood of those same things happening. |
Omer | 00:03:23:45 | I just want to mention a little bit about systematic and central processing versus peripheral and heuristic processing at this point. Let's say I want to buy a vacuum cleaner. So what would I do? Let's say I am a very meticulous person. |
Omer | 00:03:39:71 | You know, I would look at every single vacuum cleaner manufacturer out there, compare the prices, the voltage, and so on and so forth. Go systematically from company A to company Z. And after a detailed study of maybe three months… |
Cynthia | 00:03:58:60 | Where would you get your sources of information from though? |
Omer | 00:04:00:86 | I would go through everything. I would go through everything systematically, and I will make sure it's comprehensive; I don't miss anything out. I may even do a bit of crowdsourcing and all that. But at the end of it, after three months, I get my results. But three months. Come on. What do I do these days? I just Google it. |
Omer | 00:04:19:28 | I just ask my friend. We crowdsource for answers. Maybe I know a vacuum cleaner salesman, or maybe I know someone who knows about household products, who's bought a very good vacuum cleaner. Now just ask him or her, you know, say, what do you think? You know, what should I do? |
Omer | 00:04:34:09 | And then there you go. These are shortcuts to decision-making. They’re heuristics. So central or systematic processing means that back in those days, without all this ease, everything is too easy nowadays. And there’s a problem with that. When things come to you too easy, you don't check for facts. When things come too easily, you don't check for nuances. |
Omer | 00:04:55:13 | You don't check for context. You get what I mean. When you crowdsource for answers, we just go for the easy solutions. They just come at you. But it's just easy. You just have to trust that the person who is telling it to you is reliable, and you trust him. But that's the word: trust; trust is more important than the facts. |
Cynthia | 00:05:13:81 | So what do we do in a situation like that? What’s your advice? |
Omer | 00:05:17:61 | This is the way the world is. You see, we are living in a time in which people want information fast at their fingertips instantly. Things are moving very fast. You need a certain amount of information, and these days, more is being expected out of you. |
Omer | 00:05:34:67 | So back in the days, if I just went to the Stamford Library (I missed that place), I went to the reference section and went through this thing called a microfilm. Have you guys heard of that? (Cynthia: Not for a long time.) And you go through the rolls, and you look through the newspaper articles. |
Omer | 00:05:51:59 | It was a beautiful process because then you see, oh my goodness, these are the kind of advertisements you had in the 1960s. But no coming back to this, the search, that hard search, the journey revealed so many things. These days, that journey doesn't exist. When you Google for something, you get a flood of stuff, but more is being expected out of you, which is why [the] youths need to be taught how to be more discerning in the kind of information they are getting. |
Omer | 00:06:17:92 | It's going to be harder now. The kids these days have a harder job because they have too much information. |
Cynthia | 00:06:23:44 | Is it just youth, though? What kind of behaviours and reactions do we observe in different profiles, different demographics of people? |
Omer | 00:06:30:57 | Oh, you're right there. It's so easy to just blame everything on youth like they are the ones who can’t discern, they are the silly ones. Blame it all on the millennials. No, it is not true. |
Cynthia | 00:06:39:06 | Well, the digital natives had a lot of access. |
Omer | 00:06:41:61 | And it's a funny word, you know, this word, the “digital natives”, and we say that they need digital literacy. They are more literate about digital stuff than anybody else. They'll teach you a thing or two. |
Omer | 00:06:52:57 | Just to digress a little bit, I mean, youth these days, they can figure out how to use encryption devices on their own. Tor, VPN, and all that kind of stuff. And you want to teach them about digital literacy? They are very literate. But what they are not literate in is analysis and discernment of ideas. |
Omer | 00:07:10:45 | How do you make sense of what is credible? How do you make sense of what is damaging; the kind of harm it can do? Because they haven't gone through enough of life to know what can hurt [them]. People have gone through a lot of life experiences. And I've been talking about that, they will know, right? |
Omer | 00:07:29:97 | Sometimes you may have the right answers, but it's going to hurt a lot of people. Or sometimes, when it's put wrongly, it can hurt a lot of people. They don't know about this. |
Cynthia | 00:07:38:64 | Sure. So there are some parameters to make. |
Cynthia | 00:07:41:47 | What kind of behaviours and reactions do you observe when there's distrust in such a landscape? |
Omer | 00:07:46:60 | There are many ways people adapt to this kind of distrust. One of the easiest ways to adapt to any kind of distrust is [when] you have no choice. |
Omer | 00:07:55:51 | You may not trust what is happening to you, but you feel that you have very little options to exercise. And again, I go back to the “good enough” solution, and you think, “Well, I don't really believe these people, but I don't think the harm is going to be that bad. I'll just go with it”. But if it concerns something that is life and death, they will take a step back. |
Omer | 00:08:18:61 | They will look at, “I'm not left with these options, but what other options are there?” When legitimate options are gone, people will turn to illegitimate options. Counter-culture options. People have instrumental rationality. They will weigh the cost and benefits of their action. And if they feel that the situation is so dire that they need to now step out of the system. |
Omer | 00:08:42:25 | The system is not offering them anything that can save them. They will look at other things because they feel it's dire enough. So once you've crossed that level, you will look at extremist solutions. |
Omer | 00:08:54:07 | You will look at other social movements, things that actually promote solutions that are contrary to what is being advocated, and sometimes strongly resisting what is being advocated. Sometimes this resistance can take on more aggressive forms, of course. |
Cynthia | 00:09:12:91 | So how do young people, if they're living with family members who are subject to this disinformation, how would you advise a young person to try to reach out? |
Omer | 00:09:23:01 | Someone told me a long time ago if you want to start convincing someone that you've never had a relationship with in the first place, good luck. This already has to be set a long time ago, if let's say the youth already have a kind, caring relationship with the elderly, helping them where they need help. And perhaps even just listening to them. |
Omer | 00:09:44:21 | When someone listens to you, you feel validated that people respect what you're trying to say. You know what I mean? So, when you already have that relationship, then you have, for example, someone who is younger coming to them, “Sorry, grandpa, have you taken your vaccination?” “No, I haven't.” But then again, he trusts this guy because he listened to him previously and respects him. |
Omer | 00:10:07:45 | So that respect is already there, you know? And that will get things through. But let's say that relationship was never there to begin with, and you're just going to start things off. That's good, but you need to find other sources. Other more institutional sources that can help this particular demographic. That has to be done. |
Cynthia | 00:10:24:75 | So if you have a relationship, utilise the relationship. If you don't, try to find sources of authority. |
Omer | 00:10:30:78 | Institutions that can help. If you already have advocates within the community, if you already have advocates within that family, of course, use them. Because they exist. What if there aren't any? |
Omer | 00:10:42:18 | What if this elderly is living on his own? What if he's got nobody else? This is where the community has to come in. The country has to come in. You're not forgotten. We remember our Pioneer generation. We remember how much they have contributed, and we're not going to forget you now. |
Cynthia | 00:10:55:76 | That’s a great transition. I mean, we talked about the personal, the family, and now we're moving into the community. So at a wider societal level, how easy or difficult is it to influence consumers today? Media consumers. |
Omer | 00:11:08:28 | In behavioural insights, one of the things we realise is we are not always the most rational. We don't always think in a rational manner all the time. We don't always go for optimal solutions. Sometimes we go for things that are “good enough”. So coming back to the silly vacuum cleaner example, I need a vacuum cleaner now because the dust bunnies have invaded my whole house, and I can't breathe. |
Omer | 00:11:30:43 | So I will just go for something that's “good enough”. I'm not going to wait too long. If I can go on any platform, and I can get something “good enough”, [at a] good price; I’ve asked around; “good enough”. It's easier to make these choices. |
Cynthia | 00:11:42:26 | Low stake choices, right? |
Omer | 00:11:43:73 | Low-stakes choices, and more often than not, we tend to, any behaviour that is rewarded is repeated. |
Omer | 00:11:51:44 | So, for example, you go to one of these platforms, you get a “good enough” vacuum cleaner, and then, what do you think you're going to do next? You're going to go back to that platform. No harm. It works. It’s good enough. I get it fast. You know, next thing it’s at my door. |
Omer | 00:12:04:68 | Coming back to your question, it's very easy to make these choices because to make “good enough” choices, I didn't say optimal, is easier. |
Cynthia | 00:12:12:62 | Earlier you mentioned that people tend to believe whatever sources of information are the most convenient. But you also said that people have a mistrust for experts. But experts are sometimes the easiest sources of information, right? Isn't the official source of information simpler, easier? |
Cynthia | 00:12:28:84 | What makes people choose to put in so much effort to believe the other side? |
Omer | 00:12:32:44 | That's a very good question. But the dynamics of what is accessible have actually changed a lot. Now let's think about it for a second. Yes, it is true. We generally tend to choose information that is not cognitively taxing. |
Omer | 00:12:46:51 | It's easy to understand. It makes sense. I don't have to think too hard about it. But when it comes to life-threatening situations and when you have the negative bias coming in, you really want to be very, very sure. Let's say it concerns your life or the life of your loved ones, and so on and so forth. |
Omer | 00:13:04:03 | In moments like that, even when you have information that's coming readily to you, you want to know a little bit more. You just want to be sure because it's your life on the line or the life of your loved one. Now the thing is, alternate information in this new era of social media and mass information is so accessible. |
Omer | 00:13:25:01 | These alternate voices are even more amplified now than even mainstream media sometimes. So, for example, if you have mainstream information coming to you, it's just a click away to look at other perspectives. They’re very visible, and they're not hard to find either. So I'm just wondering; actually, it's not a very bad thing. |
Omer | 00:13:45:08 | I mean, it's a double-edged sword. Yes, there is the potential for unverified facts based on sensational news, with regard to alternate information. Yes of course, they want to make it newsy. They want to sell things. But at the same time, they can also be your advocates. |
Omer | 00:14:00:56 | Now, imagine if they were your voices to spread the right information that can save lives. Why not co-op them? |
Cynthia | 00:14:08:03 | How do we co-op them? |
Omer | 00:14:09:29 | In the first place we shouldn't ostracise them per se. If there was some way in which we can bring this community of journalists together, put mainstream and even alternative voices. Just imagine, all of them coming together. When you know there are bigger things at stake, it's a matter of life and death —can they be your voices to spread the right message to save lives? |
Cynthia | 00:14:31:57 | Reducing that polarity between the different voices. |
Omer | 00:14:34:24 | They can also be your filter. So when there is a lot of disinformation coming in, they can be the sources, because people tend to resell the other voice; it's easily accessible as well. |
Omer | 00:14:44:41 | Maybe they can do that first line of filtering as well. So yes, you will get your mainstream information coming in. But at the same time, your alternate voices also help to reinforce that same message. |
Cynthia | 00:14:56:57 | The challenge is how to get everybody together, right? |
Omer | 00:14:59:03 | That is a challenge. |
Cynthia | 00:15:00:17 | It sounds like there's this emotional component to the information and misinformation, right? What is the impact, however, I mean if people can influence others into misinformation, what is the larger impact of this misinformation? |
Omer | 00:15:14:45 | Well the larger impact, as what I mentioned is that it can degenerate towards a very polarising discourse, communal fault lines. And at some points, it could even degenerate into hate. And the last thing that I, of course, hope never gets there [is] violence. |
Cynthia | 00:15:33:21 | Very very dangerous and concerning situations you speak of. |
- | 00:15:38:87 | You’ve been listening to the SUSS series of podcasts. The next part of this episode will be available at suss.edu.sg/podcast. Stay tuned! |