Speaker | Timecode | Transcript |
- | 00:00:00:00 | Welcome to the SUSS series of podcasts where we explore ideas, solutions and collaborations that are making a difference in the lives of individuals, families, communities and beyond. This series features guests who will discuss how we can achieve social impact for the greater good, no matter how big or small. |
Omer | 00:00:24:18 | Hi, I'm Omer Ali Saifudeen from the Singapore University of Social Sciences and welcome to the podcast. When I first read about the kind of challenges faced by people during the COVID-19 pandemic, I would associate it with the kind of challenges relating to the healthcare system, medical supply chains, vaccines, and so on. |
Omer | 0000:44:11 | What I would least expect to discover, was that the pandemic also brought with it increased corruption risk, and criminal events as well. I'm looking forward to discussing what these dangers might be with Associate Professor Soh Kee Hean, Head of the Criminal Investigation Minor at SUSS School of Humanities and Behavioural Sciences. Kee Hean initiated the International Conference on Governance and Corruption [2021], organised by SUSS. Thanks for joining me, Kee Hean. |
Kee Hean | 00:01:12:07 | Omer, thank you. I'm very happy to join you in this session. |
Omer | 00:01:15:21 | So how was the conference? And why is there a need for a conference on this topic? |
Kee Hean | 00:01:23:08 | Well, Omer, we organised this conference because of the COVID-19 pandemic and we still have to grapple with the issues of governance and corruption control. |
Kee Hean | 00:01:41:10 | Therefore, we brought international participants together, with the hope of sharing the lessons learned in governance and corruption control. We discuss what works, what doesn't work, what are the challenges and problems faced. So we hope that through such a conference, we would be able to share the lessons learned. |
Kee Hean | 00:01:53:03 | And then in future, if there was a similar crisis, we will be better able to manage governance and corruption control issues. So in this conference, we had an international mix of speakers coming from Asia, Europe [and] the Americas. And we also had participants from a broad range of countries from ASEAN, East Asia, Middle East, Europe, as well as the Americas. |
Omer | 00:02:22:03 | Thank you, Kee Hean. I would think that during a pandemic, people would have more immediate concerns, more existential worries and so on. So I'm kind of surprised that corruption actually increased during this pandemic. When you would think that something like this would bring people together. |
Kee Hean | 00:02:38:18 | So according to some studies, corruption in healthcare costs about US$455 billion per year, about 6% of total global healthcare costs. And in terms of total public procurement value worldwide, it's estimated that up to 25% of public expenditure is lost due to corruption and fraud. |
Kee Hean | 00:02:59:14 | Therefore, as you can see, pre COVID-19 days, corruption was already a big problem in healthcare and in public procurement. So against this backdrop, it won't be surprising to find corruption cases in the COVID-19 pandemic. Several learning points came up in the conference that we had. First of all, there should be proper systems to manage public procurement, so as to enhance its effectiveness and minimise corruption. |
Kee Hean | 00:03:28:13 | The information sharing, the dissemination and transparency of public procurement is also necessary, so as to avoid corruption taking root. So while the crisis demands quick response from governments, some level of check and balance is still necessary. |
Kee Hean | 00:03:46:15 | The checks and balances may not be done in real time, but some level of checks should be done post-event. |
Omer | 00:03:54:10 | I can imagine if there were systemic flaws pre-COVID, they would become even worse during a crisis. And if those checks were not even there to begin with or very rudimentary even pre-COVID, during a crisis, it becomes all the more necessary. |
Kee Hean | 00:04:10:10 | Yes, certainly. And of course, in a crisis, it is necessary for the government to move very fast, to make decisions fast and to embark on procurement at a very rapid pace. And we certainly cannot allow all this system of checks and balances to slow down the response because it is all about saving lives. |
Kee Hean | 00:04:34:16 | But the signal must be sent clearly to all that there will still be some level of checks that will be done, so that nobody will get the idea that they could make a quick buck out of corruption in a very surreptitious manner. |
Omer | 00:04:50:10 | Yeah I mean, people are opportunistic. Criminals are opportunistic, and like you have correctly explained to us, corruption has been a challenge in society for a long time. |
Omer | 00:05:00:10 | And, there are bad actors who are going to make use of this time. So I suppose the pandemic just kind of opened up new weaknesses for them to exploit and new fault lines they can make use of. |
Kee Hean | 00:05:12:23 | Yes, certainly in the pandemic, the regular processes cannot work in the same way. But the vigilance of the government and agencies such as the anti-corruption agency, must continue to be maintained so that some level of deterrence can be provided against those who may try to resort to corruption to benefit themselves. |
Kee Hean | 00:05:38:05 | So in a COVID-19 pandemic there are a confluence of factors that may result in vulnerabilities and expose the countries involved to various corruption opportunities. |
Omer | 00:05:52:13 | Can you give us some examples of countries where the pandemic was actually exploited in cases of corruption? |
Kee Hean | 00:05:59:20 | Yes. Corruption and crisis would feed off each other. In fact, COVID-19 pandemic is not the only crisis where we see corruption cases occurring. This was also seen in some earlier crises, for example in the Ebola crisis in 2014 to 2016 in Africa. There were reports of a massive diversion of millions of dollars of public funds that were devoted to fight against the Ebola virus. |
Kee Hean | 00:06:28:02 | They were diverted for illegal gain. The Red Cross alone reported that some US$6 million was lost due to embezzlement and other irregular practices. And then there were reports of corruption cases such as sex for jobs and even people who had to bribe to get death certificates that say that the disease was not Ebola because they wanted to carry out the traditional burials of their loved ones. |
Kee Hean | 00:06:58:14 | So these risk factors all come together in a crisis; be it Ebola or the COVID-19 pandemic. First of all, with a crisis like this, there is a massive infusion of public funds to fight the crisis. Monies poured in to buy medical supplies, to buy personal protective equipment, even items like face masks, sanitizers, ventilators, and then more recently vaccines. |
Kee Hean | 00:07:29:16 | So there's a lot of money. And secondly, governments do have to respond very rapidly and urgently, and procurement processes had to be expedited. So the regular type of controls that we see in normal time cannot operate. For example, instead of open tendering, there may be just an appointment of a vendor. |
Kee Hean | 00:07:54:15 | And the usual controls may not be imposed in a single bidder situation. Thirdly, the pandemic also brought about economic downturn. Governments had to pump in more money by way of a fiscal stimulus to support the day-to-day businesses, to support the industry and the economy. |
Kee Hean | 00:08:16:08 | On top of that, there was huge financial aid provided by international organisations, such as the IMF and World Bank, to support especially the developing countries. All these factors come together and they are being made use of by those in positions of influence, to commit corruption and to benefit themselves illegally. |
Kee Hean | 00:08:40:22 | There have been several cases that had been reported. For example, in Brazil, in the Rio state, the Health Secretary was prosecuted for corruption involving the purchase of ventilators. He awarded inflated contracts for some 1000 ventilators. That's a lot of ventilators and it's supposed to save lives. Can you imagine? |
Kee Hean | 00:09:04:03 | Most of the ventilators were never delivered. The money was paid. |
Omer | 00:09:08:15 | I can imagine. (Kee Hean: Not developed) I mean, he's using it for his own profit (Kee Hean: Yes) and when people actually need it to live, (Kee hean: Yes yes) but people like this, are actually just looking at it as an opportunity for self gain. |
Kee Hean | 00:09:20:09 | Yes. Instead of saving lives, they are just enriching themselves. |
Omer | 00:09:23:14 | And they are in a position to actually, they’re in fact responsible for these people. |
Kee Hean | 00:09:27:22 | Yes, that’s right. And, that was not the only case. A similar case also happened in Bolivia, where the health minister was dismissed also over allegations over paying inflated prices for purchase of ventilators. And they were investigating a situation where the hospitals have paid more than US$600,000 for body bags, which actually was worth about US$46,000. |
Omer | 00:09:56:05 | My goodness. I mean, there's so many cases of this. It just got me wondering, Kee Hean, I do understand that it's a crisis situation and people do know that it's a lot of money coming in because you need a lot of investments. You need a lot of money to handle a crisis like that. |
Omer | 00:10:12:10 | And I suppose even people in positions of power, sadly, are getting tempted. They're seeing opportunities in this and maybe because of the nature of the crisis, they think they can get away with it. And that's sort of made me wonder what you mentioned about in an emergency situation. |
Omer | 00:10:27:07 | You might need to change the rules a bit, such that the materials are able to come in quickly. You talked about emergency procurement rules and so on. But isn’t that a fine balance in some ways? There is a need to get the items quickly. But in cutting short these processes, you sort of open a door for people who are tempted to make use of any kind of lapses. |
Kee Hean | 00:10:49:16 | You're right. The day-to-day processes and controls cannot work in the same way in a crisis. But the signalling and the posture of the government and public agencies involved must be very clear. They should remind all firstly, the public officials involved and then the vendors involved and the general public that corruption will not be tolerated, that some action will be taken. |
Kee Hean | 00:11:16:10 | While the normal processes are not operating in the same way . There is assurance given that, after the fact there will be proper checks And there will be inspections done and action will be taken against those who are responsible. So in order to do that, of course, first of all, we have to be sure that some level of day-to-day system is in place and working fine. |
Kee Hean | 00:10:49:16 | And this is where in some countries, they already face a big challenge because in a day-to-day situation, some of their public institutions may already struggle with various issues. They may try to improve themselves, but they face many difficulties. We're fortunate in Singapore. We are well taken care of. |
Omer | 00:12:06:20 | And I liked the point you mentioned that, even in a crisis you should have a baseline level of checks and balances. So this is that baseline that you already should have established prior to the pandemic. I do hear you when you say that, even though certain processes may be somewhat held back because of emergency procurement, that baseline message, that corruption is not tolerated, is made known very, very explicitly.
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Omer | 0012:34:11 | So whoever is involved would have this idea that, look, you may try something, but eventually it's going to come back to you when it is detected. |
Kee Hean | 00:12:42:12 | It is important that the agencies that are responsible, especially the anti-corruption agency, are vigilant enough and ready to act so that when there's a report, they are able to investigate quickly and then action can be taken. For example in Indonesia, last year, the anti-corruption agency investigated the ex-social affairs minister and he was prosecuted because he took US$1.2 million in bribe money from two companies that he awarded a contract to. |
Kee Hean | 00:13:17:17 | And these two companies were given the contract to help to distribute social aid packages to poor families that were affected by the COVID-19 pandemic. So can you imagine he is supposed to help the public. And then along the way, he also helped himself. |
Omer | 00:13:35:24 | It’s an interesting example that you mentioned, which is in this region you know of Southeast Asia. |
Omer | 00:13:40:10 | That brings me to the next question. We talked about international examples and you gave an example of Indonesia and what's happening down there. What's the scenario, like closer to home then? |
Kee Hean | 00:13:50:11 | In Singapore, we are fortunate that corruption is kept well under control. If you go by some of the international surveys, for example, the transparency international corruption perception index, Singapore is always rated very favourably. |
Kee Hean | 00:14:06:18 | In fact, in the survey done in 2021, Singapore came in fourth, out of, more than 180 countries. So we are fortunate that we continue to maintain a very tough stance against corruption and through the course of the COVID-19 pandemic, there's no let up in our vigilance. So unlike other countries, we are fortunate in that there were no cases that involved COVID-19 pandemic. |
Kee Hean | 00:14:38:16 | There was one recent one, where this subject tried to bribe a staff in a vaccination centre in Choa Chu Kang, to falsify his record to show that he had received a second Pfizer injection when that was not the case. |
Kee Hean | 00:14:54:07 | He offered her $50. Of course, the staff reported him and he was arrested. So that was one case there was another one which was associated with COVID-19 pandemic; not a corruption case, but a fraud case. This subject was in Singapore. He took on the identity of a genuine medical supplier. |
Kee Hean | 00:15:15:07 | And, he cheated a pharmaceutical company from Europe. He said he was going to sell them surgical masks and personal protective equipment. And they paid him millions and after they paid him, he disappeared. But he was eventually caught. |
Omer | 00:15:33:05 | So a lot of these corruption cases are like mixed in as part of another scam, isn’t it? |
Kee Hean | 00:54:36:14 | It is possible that as we look at the corruption landscape in Singapore or for that matter in other countries, we do have to look at not just corruption per se because, when the criminal is criminally minded, he doesn't say “Oh, let me just commit a corruption offence and I'm not going to do any other offence.”. |
Kee Hean | 00:16:00:09 | He’ll just find any way that he can to illegally profit from. |
Omer | 00:16:05:16 | So corruption is just an enabler as part of a scam that he or she is doing. |
Kee Hean | 00:16:09:20 | Yes. So the overall posture of the government and its enforcement agencies is quite important. And you know, in Singapore we adopt a zero tolerance policy against corruption. |
Kee Hean | 00:16:00:09 | And this has been the case since the early days of our founding prime minister, Lee Kuan Yew. When we say a zero tolerance policy on corruption, we really mean it. Because you can see our CPIB deal with all sorts of cases. They deal with cases that involve small amounts of bribe or large amounts of bribe. They deal with the giver of bribes and the receiver of bribes. |
Kee Hean | 00:16:49:08 | And they deal with people regardless of their status or position of power. This policy for us is rigorously pursued. Some people are shocked when the CPIB takes offenders to court for bribes of 10 cents, $1, and this has happened. In 2018 and 2019, several forklift drivers were prosecuted for collecting bribes of 10 cents to $1. |
Kee Hean | 00:17:20:22 | And they were doing this, why? Because, the forklift drivers service the trucks. If the truck driver pays the bribe, he will jump (the) queue and get service earlier. If you refuse to pay the bribe, you wait [for] your turn longer. |
Omer | 00:17:34:05 | It's the bottom line, isn't it? It's the message you're sending out. |
Omer | 00:17:37:24 | Even for small cases like this, when they feel they can get away with it, that sort of opens the door to push the envelope, push the limits to even bigger cases of corruption. And I do see a point in which to some, it seems like, “Oh my goodness it's so petty. It's just a few cents.” But it's the principle behind it. |
Omer | 00:17:55:10 | To say that it's zero tolerance to any kind of corruption, whether small or big. |
Kee Hean | 00:18:01:10 | And when you look at it, it's not just about the amount of money that's involved, in a case like this, it is also about the sort of culture you want to have. Do you want to have a level playing field for all the business personnel to operate in? Do you want them to have fair competition with each other or as in this case, you try to bribe and jump [the] queue. (Omer: Preferential Treatment) Yes. It casts a certain light on the nature of the business in Singapore. |
Omer | 00:18:31:04 | Yeah the people tend to sometimes not have a real understanding of what corruption entails – this gratification. They think it's just about bribes. But they don't see the kind of preferential treatment that may not involve money per se and things like that coming in, isn't it? |
Kee Hean | 00:18:44:14 | Yes, that's right. So there are all these hidden effects such as the preferential treatment, the loss of the level playing field that we guard against. |
Omer | 00:18:54:20 | That's very interesting, Kee Hean. I absolutely agree on this approach of zero tolerance. Obviously, we have a lot of major cases that happened locally as well. I was hoping you could touch a bit on that and not just locally, but maybe in this region as well. |
Kee Hean | 00:19:08:19 | The region is also an area of concern for us. Because corruption these days is not just a localised matter. It's not just a domestic offence. It has an international character. Today with advances in technology and globalisation, we have a movement of people across countries, and transactions can cross borders easily, and flow of money through the international financial system is also very swift and rapid. So it is important that we recognize that while we deal with corruption locally, there is an international aspect to it. |
Kee Hean | 00:19:49:11 | We will have to play our part to deal with the international dimension of corruption. So for example, 1MDB. The case involved many countries, such as the U.S., the Middle East, Switzerland, Hong Kong, Singapore as well. |
Kee Hean | 00:20:06:15 | And, while the actual corruption event did not occur in Singapore, there were illegal proceeds from the corruption and other crimes that flowed through multiple channels, through various shell companies. And from the investigation reports, it can be seen that such transactions can be quite complex - from the point where money is raised by 1MDB and then how it is syphoned off through different routes, through differing shell companies. With the beneficial ownership, camouflaged. |
Kee Hean | 00:20:47:10 | And then having gone through various routes then made its way into the bank account of the ex-prime minister, Najib. |
Omer | 00:20:55:20 | So when corruption is very institutionalised, we actually see what you described - whole systems and infrastructures that support this act of corruption by anyone, isn’t it? |
Kee Hean | 00:21:08:15 | The network and the methods, to commit corruption and then to launder the corruption proceeds, are already in place. It is a problem that the international community is struggling with. And of course, the various recent episodes that came up such as the release of the Panama papers, the Paradise papers and the Pandora papers. |
Kee Hean | 00:21:34:05 | and earlier, the release of the Suisse secrets paper, all point to the fact that the international financial system could be abused by corruption offenders to move and to hide the proceeds from corruption. So this network and the methods that are used is something that is uppermost in the priority of the international community. |
Kee Hean | 00:21:57:16 | Efforts are underway to try and resolve it through mechanisms such as through the United Nations Convention against Corruption where countries will get together and try to discuss such common issues and try to find common solutions to it. From Singapore's perspective, we therefore not only look at what happens within our boundaries, but also what happens when Singapore businesses venture out of the country to do business. |
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